New Just Rambling Podcast! To celebrate nearly 20 years of this site, I have started a new podcast! I am not sure how often I will publish episodes, but here is my first! Hope you enjoy.
Summary
In this conversation, Gina shares her personal experiences with discrimination in the workplace due to her sexual orientation and reflects on the hypocrisy within religious leadership, particularly focusing on Paula White. The conversation delves into the ethics of financial practices in religious organizations and critiques the prosperity gospel, questioning the moral standards applied to different groups within the Christian community.
Sometimes in life, my brain ponders a topic and ultimately it ends up here. Admittedly, it’s been a while since this has occurred! So let’s say adios to 2023 with this post! Here we go.
Parent 1 – A Faith Crisis
Once upon a time, there was a middle class mother who was a hard worker, very family oriented, devoutly religious. Her first son died shortly after being born and was followed by the birth of two daughters and a son. They were raised in the Midwest, followed their mother’s religion, and grew up in what many would call an American dream. When her son graduated college, he joined the Navy and was based in Southern California, where he would meet his future wife. This situation was very distressing for his mother, as the woman was divorced, already had 4 children, was nearly 10 years older than her son, and did not follow the faith that the mother so loved. This did not concern her son, who had long stopped following the basic tenets of his mother’s faith despite being so entrenched in it throughout his life.
The mother was at a crossroads – so much of what she held very close to her heart, her very worldview and understanding of eternity, was being broken by her son. The fact that he no longer participated in the steps of their faith meant that his soul was in peril. The woman he had fallen in love with would lead to a marriage outside of their faith, and eventually their children that were also outside of the mother’s faith, which made his life beyond this world potentially even bleaker. Should she remind him of these facts and double down on her religious beliefs, drawing a line in the sand until her son sees the errors of his ways and gets right with God? Should she remind him in every interaction that she fears he will be closed out of heaven (aka, go to hell) and now she has the added burden of the same fate for his offspring? Should she refuse to meet his wife and their future children because of what she views as his poor decisions?
Ultimately, this mother chose love. While it is uncertain if she every became close with her daughter in law, she never held back her love for her son, reminded him of the religion of his youth, nor did she ever make her grandchildren feel less than. In fact, she welcomed her daughter in law’s four children into her heart and referred to them as her grandchildren. She was extremely close to her granddaughter, who would attend church with her but never became a member of the religion the mother loved so much. She never hinted to her son or grandchildren that they were going to hell, that she was disappointed in them, or otherwise limited their relationship around any of this. In fact, her granddaughter would often feel that her grandmother held her in the highest esteem on the earth. To this day, over 20 years after the mother’s/grandmother’s death, her granddaughter is impacted by the love and relationship that existed.
Parent 2 – A Faith Crisis
Once upon a time, there was a middle class father who was a hard worker, very family oriented, who became devoutly religious in his golden years after having spent most of his adult life not attending any sort of church services. He married young, had four step children, and was blessed to add two bio children; a daughter and a son. He had been raised in a devout household with loving parents, but forged his own life after leaving home at 18. He was a loving father, made time to bond with and lead his children, showed compassion for people such as homeless veterans, and was very generous with his love.
Many years down the road, the father was at a crossroads – he had since divorced and remarried and had became very involved in a different religion than what he was raised in. His adult daughter had divorced her husband, had married a woman, had adopted children……so much of what he now held very close to his heart, his very worldview and understanding of eternity, was being broken by her daughter. The fact that she was in this same-sex relationship meant that her soul was in peril based on his faith. Should he remind her of these facts and double down on his religious beliefs, drawing a line in the sand until his daughter sees the errors of her ways and gets right with God? Should he remind her in every interaction that he fears she will be closed out of heaven (aka, go to hell)? Should he refuse to meet her wife and their adopted children because of what he views as her poor decisions?
Ultimately, this father chose religion. For 17 years he refused to meet the children that his daughter adopted when they were 5 and 3. For 17 years he refused to interact with her wife, despite having no problem with her before he confirmed their true relationship. For years when they’d interact on the phone or in person, he would point out that he was praying for his daughter or share that he was worried about her soul. Ultimately, he accused his daughter of being indoctrinated because she claimed to be a member of his religion, which he felt was impossible due to her sexuality and insisted she was wrong. When his daughter’s adult children defended her via text, he accused his daughter of sending them under her children’s names. When his daughter begged him to just be her dad, to just let her be his daughter, and not discuss this topic with her, he refused. And now because his daughter could no longer emotionally or spiritually handle this, they no longer interact. Nor does he have a relationship with any of his grandchildren. And, ironically, he doesn’t have any sort of relationship with his son, either – who is heterosexual and adheres to the same faith as the father.
I often deal with unresolved trauma in my dreams. I know when I am not breaking down or facing my trauma when a theme emerges in recurring dreams, which has been my lot of late. Each morning, I have been spending time reliving these dreams, trying to find the root of the trauma. Even when its obvious what I need to confront, too often I allow my busy schedule to distract me or set aside the realizations that exist, so that the theme continues. Today, I will share with you the latest trauma in hopes that I no longer avoid the important process of facing my hardest, broken pieces.
If you’ve read any of my previous posts, some of this will not be a surprise. For those stumbling here now, here is a quick recap to get you up to speed:
I am a lesbian and have been with my wife for 18 years. We are legally married
We are both “out”
While many in our life accept us as we are, there are some within our family and friend community who have withdrawn from relationship with us or are vocal that they do not agree with our “lifestyle”
I identify as a follower of Christ, but have not attended church regularly for about 5 years
My wife and I have 5 children; three are my biological kids, and two entered our hearts through international adoption. All are our spiritual flesh and blood.
Since the youngest two came to American and our home around 14 years ago, our world has expanded so much! However, some within our circle have refused to accept them due to the fact their parents are LGBTQ+. One such person is my father. Despite having raised 4 step-children (it is weird to write that, as we were always held as a family without such labels), I was directly told by my father that these two precious and innocent souls were “not family”. He has never met them, has had no interaction with them, and since their homecoming (which occurred before my wife and I were “out”), my wife has been treated differently by my dad. Shortly after this time, we did come out and, while I was told my dad would always love me, he made clear that he did not accept my homosexual lifestyle.
Dealing with this and my dad’s refusal to even be in the same room as my wife and two youngest children, interactions became difficult at best. Initially, I allowed anger to drive me and I found it easy to cut my dad out of normal interactions. However, one key point is that my dad represented the “perfect parent” to me in almost all regards, and my love for him held no limitations. Because of that, I made the decision to have a relationship with him as best I could, even with his refusal to include pieces of my heart. This working relationship became easier to facilitate in 2009 when my family moved out of state; when I was back in California, it was often easy for me to visit without causing undue pain to my wife and youngest children.
Jump forward to the last couple years. My dad, who had been raised a Catholic but had not attended mass my entire life, became very active in the protestant Evangelical community. His second wife, who had been in my life for nearly 30 years, was very involved in this area and was sure to be a big part of this transformation. As someone who was never a Catholic and who had accepted Christ in a charismatic church in my teens, this change was initially a positive one for me! My years is ministry, Christian education, and faith rejoiced that my dad was now actively involved with Christ in, what I perceived as, a personal relationship that provided much more “hands on” knowledge of God’s grace, love, and truth.
In reality, however, the transformation my dad experienced has been very different than my own faith journey. Where my walk with Christ has lead me to love more, empathize more, and realize how very broken I and all of us are in this journey called life, it seemed my dad’s walk emphasized very different attributes. Where he used to encourage, he now condemned. Where he used to seek out comforting others, he now demeaned. Where he balanced his intelligence with a calm demeanor for most of my life, he began to appear more rigid and judgmental. As this evolution occurred, I chocked it up more toward his political views, which had changed dramatically over the years from how he was when I was young. I failed to really grasps the changes he was experiencing were so vast.
While this was happening, Facebook also exposed this journey. Initially, I’d received videos in my Messenger inbox from his wife that “nicely and lovingly” explained why being a homosexual was a sin and not in God’s will. There were never any discussions or exchanges with these, though at times I’d respond with scripture about how we all sin and fall short of the glory of God and how we are redeemed solely by Christ. Things then escalated from there; aggressive posts began to appear stating that Gays cannot be Christians, that Gays followed Satan, and that even Catholics were evil Satan followers bound for hell. Again, no real relational conversations occurred, other than my dad’s occasional comments on calls, such as, “You know I love you, but I worry about you…….I pray for you all the time…….”
Then, on Easter Sunday 2021 I called my dad. I felt no warmth from him or even joy that we were talking. In truth, I had already come to a place where it felt like a burden to call him due to his obvious view regarding my life. However, there was still that little girl in me who loved her dad and wanted to at least talk to him on important days such as this. During the call, he put me on speaker (not usual) and proceeded to have an “intervention”; in summary, he said my view of Christianity was “indoctrination”, that unless I left my wife and repented I was going to hell, and that I was not a Christian at all. It got heated when I calmly asked him if he had stopped sinning, why his recurring sins such as anger (which was actively being thrown at me at this point) was not a problem, why some in the Bible did not “repent” but still went to heaven (ex: dude on the cross next to Christ), and the like. He clearly acknowledged that WE have a role in our salvation and can’t rely solely on the blood of Christ. He also accused me of sending texts to him pretending to be my oldest daughter when they had had an argument months earlier. Finally, in tears, I said all I wanted was to have a relationship with him, not to be told I was going to hell, and that religion should not overshadow family. As there was no getting past that point, I tearfully said he would never hear from me again though I loved him even though his beliefs were so vastly different than mine. My heart could no longer bear interacting with the man he had become.
I did send him a less emotional email a week or so later, imploring him to set this aside and just allow us to be father and daughter, but he never replied.
Now, as a woman in her fifties, I have my recurring dreams. In them, I am usually much younger; maybe late teens or early 20’s. My dream last night displayed my father breaking into my newly acquired apartment with Deana and stealing everything he had ever given me, especially sentimental items. Further, he took all the money out of my bank account even though I had earned it on my own. With those actions, he indicated he never wanted to see me again and he was no longer my father. Dream Gina was devastated, not only for the practical reasons of having no money, but for the betrayal of my home, my possessions, and my life. Who steals from their daughter and cuts them out of their life? This dream, the most vivid I’ve had in a few weeks, troubled me for hours upon waking. However, I did stop and ponder it and came up with the following.
My father did steal everything from me; every good memory of my life, every moment that used to warm my very soul, every smile that had ever passed between us. The man he is today has stolen the dad I have loved my entire life and left me with a horror that lacks love (unconditional or otherwise), empathy, or care.
My father has clearly indicated with his actions that he believes he owns me, or pieces of me such as my salvation, and has every right to dictate their value, as represented by my bank account.
My father’s pride, something I used to respect so much, has exposed just how hateful he’s become in the name of love and/or religion.
These realities have caused my great pain, tears, loss, and anxiety. But they have not killed me.
So, today I am facing those realities. I am acknowledging the trauma and horror that my dad has become this person that lacks…….everything a father should. That true love does not do that. That religion is not about this. That no perception of sin justifies these actions. And as I sit and ponder the loss of my dad, I rejoice that I am alive, I am truly valuable in the eyes of Christ and my family, and I am enough as a child of God.
Based on Luke 18:9-14 The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector
Note: this assumes the position that sin impacts all of us; it does not agree with nor refute that LGBTQ+ people are sinners due to their sexuality.
To those who were sure of their own righteousness based on their own actions, Jesus told this parable:
A man and a woman went to church to pray, one was a straight man and the other was a lesbian. The straight man stood by himself and prayed, “God, thank you that I am not like other people – robbers, liars, cheaters – or even this filthy lesbian! I go to church, I have been baptized, and we both know I’ve repented and she has not. She is doomed for hell and I will sit by you in paradise.”
But the lesbian stood in the back of the church, almost hiding. She hung her head, and with tear in her eyes said, “God, have mercy on me. I am a sinner, and know that nothing I can do with my own efforts can save me.”
“I tell you this lesbian, rather than the straight man, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
Reminder about relationships:
Ephesians 4:1-3 – not “indoctrination”, but the Word of God. Emphasis mine.
“I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.”
I’ve written versions of this letter several times; in my head, while brushing my teeth, even on my computer on occasion. I’ve never sent it for a few reasons; I didn’t want to supersede all the good you’ve provided me in my life, I didn’t want to stir the pot, and I didn’t want to hurt you. So why am I doing this now, on this bog? I am not entirely sure, actually. Maybe I am a coward. Maybe I’m vindictive. Or maybe I am just……tired. But, in all cases, I am fighting to see where you truly love me. And that is hard for me.
I have often idolized you during my 50+ years on this earth. I have modeled so many aspects of my life around you. I try to think critically. I try to stay calm in stressful situations. I try to to be nurturing and consistent. I try to verbalize the love I feel for others and make an effort to show that love in meaningful ways. SOOOO many things I do are because you modeled it first for me. And for many, many years of my life I felt your pride in my actions. In fact, much of my confidence, joy, and determination is derived from the truth I always followed like a beacon in the storm – you are the one person who loved me completely and unconditionally. Not a day goes by that I don’t think about you in some way, almost always in a positive manner, and that often makes me smile.
However, we both know there are pieces in this picture that are harder to deal with. How you’ve never wanted to meet Zack and Sophia, two individuals made in the image of God who did nothing to you except be adopted by two lesbians. The anger and hatred you apparently still carry against my mom. How you feel about Deana, who by the way I persued. How you virtually have no active relationship with my brother, his kids, or my kids, and probably blame them and exonerate yourself completely. How you feel about my life. I have always ignored these shortfalls with you as I felt it was more important to just love you. And all I am asking for is the same from you.
I’m over 50 years old and my heart is breaking because I was wrong about one thing for sure – you love is not unconditional. You see me through a lens that hones into one aspect of my life – my sexuality. And that is just wrong.
For months, I have been having recurring dreams where you are the central figure. In them, I am almost always a teenager, most of the time high school age, and living with you. The dreams often change circumstances, but always you are the hero that you were – my main hero, the one that protected me, the one who met all my needs, the person I remember at that time who was the only person I KNEW loved me no matter what. Ah, I missed that person. You see, I have known I was gay since about 12. Maybe 13. Puberty and all that. I hated myself because of that. There were times, even then, when I thought that dying would probably be easier than to admit I was a broken, filthy lesbian. But even on my darkest days, I’d look at you and realize that you loved me. SOOOOO much. And that was enough. I held on because of YOU. I knew that, even when I hated myself so much, you carried enough love to hold me over and that created enough for me to face one more day. Sure, other people loved me too…..I admit that……but YOUR love was my reason to not quit.
It was in that envelope of love that I started going to church on my own. In meeting the reality of Jesus in my own heart, I realized that you had already prepared my heart for the miracle that Christ is. He loves me, just like you did. He cares for me, just like you did. He will do anything for me, just like you would. While those teenage years were hard in so many ways, accepting Christ took the beacon you had provided for me and expanded so much as I grew closer to Jesus. And, as far as my sexuality, I was SO RELIEVED that now I had the means to be changed from it! The only thing that held me back a bit during those first years as a born again Christian was my concern for your own faith and related religiosity. While my church didn’t say those in your faith were not saved, I was so sure that you did not have the connection to Christ that I was having because of the dogma of the religion you were raised in. I struggled so much for that and often prayed that you would experience what I was experiencing. I tried now and then back in the day to bridge that gap with you, but it was hard…….it was weird to even suggest that you were lacking anything, and to push too much seemed disrespectful and even intimidating. I held a burden in my heart about this for many, many years, but I also had peace in my heart that you knew Christ. It wasn’t that I thought you were not saved, but that you were missing out on so many things with Jesus that I yearned for you to experience. I am very glad your faith now seems to be an answer to all my years of praying for you.
Anyway, you lived through the years that followed, but you probably don’t know the efforts I made through the church, through hours of prayer, through basically reparative therapy I went through to not be gay. I was determined to be straight. In addition, I had plenty of guys after me and could have gone down the path of being sexually active with them to build that “straight lifestyle”, but I was also determined to not diminish Christ’s directive to avoid the “sins of the flesh”. My husband fit that area well for many reasons, and I perceived him as a godly man. I know now in retrospect that I married him for all the wrong reasons, and apart from the beautiful children we had together, I regret putting him and myself through 16 years of marriage based mostly on my desire to avoid being gay and focus onbeing a “good Christian”, Okay, full disclosure – of also not disappointing you…..right after not disappointing Jesus. And even though back then I found the idea ludicrous, I was afraid that you’d condemn me. And you HAVE! I should probably add, throughout those years with my husband, I continued through several means to work with Jesus, the church, etc in removing my attraction to women. Including a suicide attempt, which was done in San Antonio when I was about 25, the first time the two of us separated.
Back to my dreams. I found it curious that they kept happening, always with you being the focus. I would wake and feel so warm, picturing your love in those dreams, but was always confused about why I kept having them. I mean, let’s face it, I am now over 50 and those years were a long time ago. Week after week, I pondered this, but then realized I miss that person in my life. The person that I KNEW loved me just as I was…..mistakes and all. Am I saying you don’t love me now? No, not at all. But whether that love I felt as a kid/teenager was based on a fantasy because back then I was “straight”, it was real to me and I never sensed any withholding of it. And I miss it. I haven’t felt that from you in years.
Today, I insist to myself that you love me. You reassure that you will be there for me, and I try to trust that. But I also know clearly that out of love, or concern, or whatever the word is – you don’t love the piece of me that is a lesbian. And you’ve refused to partake in very important pieces of my life – MY FAMILY – because of it. I also suspect you may think that I am not a “real Christian” because I am with Deana and am in this lifestyle, based on the things that your spouse posts on Facebook and your own comments directly to me. You even say you are worried that I will go to hell because of it. While all of this is exceedingly hard for me to admit, I want to assure you that I understand that your pastor tells you, and you believe the Bible is clear about this condemnation. However, I must candidly say that MY faith believes the Bible when it says that no one can know the heart of man, that our sins are completely covered by the blood of Christ, and our own efforts have nothing to add to it. That, when we accept Christ, we bring nothing to the table and Christ assures us that we cannot be snatched from His hand. Also, I will NEVER suggest to you through statements that I am “praying for you (to change)”, “praying for you (to accept me)”, etc. Even when our faith differed and some suggested yours was not “true”, I never considered you were heading to hell nor did I pray that you be saved from the first. When I pray for you, I pray for you to be blessed, period.
On that note, I hope you accept that I love Jesus, that He loves me, that we interact daily (really, in the moments throughout the day), and I completely trust that He will not forsake me – even now. I didn’t just “decide” to be a lesbian, nor did I “decide” to ignore Jesus. I hope you can trust that I have peace that Jesus loves me, period. I don’t say that lightly, nor am I trying to justify my marriage or anything else. I am saying I trust Jesus. And whether you or anyone else defines my marriage as a sin does not diminish the saving grace that we all receive in Christ. I am not trying to perpetuate a “license to sin” mentality, but I hope you know that after almost 25 years of attempting to abolish my attraction to women, I have accepted that I am who I am and have peace that Jesus will not forsake me. Admittedly, you and I have different views regarding this about my life, but I hope we can move past it. We should both trust in Jesus and His saving grace, because we BOTH have sinned and continue to do so (iyes, I have more things to work on besides “my sexuality”) and the Bible is clear that His death and resurrection covers those sins. But if we don’t believe his blood covers those sins, then the whole Gospel is a lie. There is no in between – there is no mixing the two and insisting we have to do some intervention with our own actions for SOME sins. But again, if you don’t see it that way, I am not here to change your mind. But I would never say you or your spouse are disqualified from heaven due to sin, because in MY belief system, doing so diminishes the power of Christ and the fact that He conquered the grave.
Also, as much as it hurts my heart, I have to share that I am no longer secure that you love me as Jesus does and maybe that is okay. Maybe it is better that I don’t look to you in the same way as I did, because you’re not perfect. Wow, it’s weird that I wrote that. You’ve always been my measuring stick for perfection. But anyhow, the sad truth is your love has clearly been communicated as conditional, that I am not worthy of it, and while I appreciate your concern and stated love, I mostly feel your dislike for me. Your DISLIKE of me. Can you picture being in my position, of acknowledging that fact? You make it abundantly clear, in every conversion – even the most mundane – that I don’t measure up. That I am at risk. And that I you have no pride in my life.
Even at my age, I wish you’d give me enough credit to treat me as a person that was created in the image of God. Even apart from my role in our relationship, because I have worth. A few years ago, you told me a story about how you gave an old man that had lost his Bible a new one. Your eyes teared up as you recounted the tale. I sense no tears or such emotion for me, even as you also share that when I was born you were floating on the clouds. I have no reason to feel that lack of emotion except for one reason – I am a lesbian. And that just really sucks.
Look, I need to calibrate this. It was not my intention to knock you. I don’t want you to feel as if I am saying you’re in this mean space or that you’re meaning or trying to hurt me. But it DOES hurt, and that sucks badly. It’s like getting a grade of A- and being told I am a loser. I guess I am saying I want to acknowledge the “elephant in the room” and say – I know we see things differently. I don’t condemn you for your beliefs, but I won’t hide the fact that they are hurtful and seem more important to you than “loving your neighbor and enemies”. It seems self-righteous, especially since you’ve had a lot of sin in your life which I don’t even focus on. Sometimes I wish and pray so hard it was not this way, but I love you so much NOW that I don’t want to change you. And I am writing this to acknowledge this and to tell you in my own words that I don’t want to have this separation because of your negative view of me, or the damage that view has caused me. I don’t want to feel both an urgent desire to call you just to hear your voice, but hesitate (and ultimately, not call) because of not wanting to dance around the truth of this difference. I don’t want to feel like calling you just allows you to point out how disappointed you feel, or that your constant prayers for me are because you believe I am going to hell. I don’t mean to suggest that you stop having these concerns, but it does nothing for our relationship or even the truth of Christ by doing that. To summarize, stop throwing stones at me.
I also want to add that you should have plenty of things to be proud about in regards to me, even if now you no longer see or acknowledge them. While I will try very hard to no longer focus on the fact that my sexuality is a negative for you, I hope you can see that I am not the sum of that sexuality exclusively. You should have pride in my life, because I am abundantly blessed. I have been in a stable, loving, and encouraging marriage for over 17 years (something that I could never say about my first marriage). All five of my kids are thriving in their own way and have the foundation of Christ to build upon. I work very hard to not be ruled by my emotions, though I leave room for understanding and empathy. I have overcome some pretty big obstacles and am thriving. I have an amazing career where I am (now) appreciated and valued. I am mentoring a few people, in their career and also spiritually, and hope that blesses them. I am financially sound, which includes helping others who are not as fortunate. I am introspective, constantly praying and seeking to grow – to have my heart and mind corrected or altered by Christ as He leads. I hope, by going through this process each day, I can become a better person towards you as well, in that I can at least interact with you without the residue that has permeated me because of this situation.
Finally, I challenge you to think about why you follow your faith. Does it feed your soul and remove anger, condemnation, and judgment from your heart? Or is it so that you can look at others and measure their sin? Do you spend your days worrying about all of the people that are going to hell? Do you DECIDE for yourself, based on what you read and are being taught, that there are so many that DESERVE hell? Do you compare yourself (I assume you believe you’re going to heaven) to others and in that comparison determine others are NOT going to heaven? None of these things describe the Gospel that I follow.
Ephesians 2:4-9 says, “But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. “
John 13:34-35 says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
And just in case you feel warning me about hell and what you’re concerned about is love, here is 1 Cor 13:4-6, defining love:
“Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.”
Finally, despite the harder words I’ve written here, I do love you and wish things were better between us.
Last week I reached out on my FaceBook Page and asked you all if, as Christians, we are required to be holy. And, if so, how do we maintain holiness?
I received a lot of likes on the post, but it was pretty quiet for a while and I thought, well, maybe you all are more shy than I thought you were! But then I started receiving private messages with some feedback. So, here are some of those comments (many were similar, so I have highlighted the general ideas received). Remember, this is not a debate, just a means to interact and consider perspectives and ideas.
Yes for Holy
“If we aren’t holy, than others will not know we are Christians. So I think we do need to be holy. We need to pray to get guidance from God on how to be holy and we can read the bible.”
“Fruits are what people see, so if we aren’t holy than we are no different from the world.”
“We are made holy by god and we stay that way by being with other Christians and reading the bible.”
No for Holy
“I think this is a little tricky, but I would say we do not need to be holy. That sounds a little weird. I think the idea that we doing anything is kind of weird also. We are where we are because Jesus died for us and rose again. So I think he is the one that made us holy. And if so, then how do we do anything to maintain it? I have to think about this one.”
“The church has taught for many centuries that we as ignorant followers must conform to what they say we need to do in order to be accepted. Each organization within the church framework has their own set of rules to follow and often are contentious to other organizations that see things differently. Even the Bible can be confusing as the Old Testament says one thing while the New Testament says another. So, I think holiness is a by-product of our accepting Christ, not something we do. And when we interact with him in the way we decide to, He assures we maintain that holiness. I hope that people see that holiness in me, but it is not from me but from Jesus.”
“I used to think we had to fight our flesh everyday to be holy. Every morning I would “pick up my cross” and “slay the flesh” and put on my garments of praise so that I would not lose holiness. I I used to go to church all the time just so I could be holy, but I never felt like I ever truly made the cut. But then I learned about grace, and my perspective changed. Jesus is what it is about, not me. And I will leave it at that.”
Next Steps
Thanks everyone who responded and made this new effort so meaningful to me!
Watch Facebook for a scheduled live event to discuss this topic and weigh in on my thoughts and also interact with more comments from all of you! Feel free to share with friends because expanding our views and understanding others is a noble idea!
I refer to homosexuality in my video and in this blog as sin, not because I believe this, but because it is mirroring the context of those who believe it is a sin. The goal of this post is not to argue this view’s merits, but to focus on how the Bible describes how we should respond to sin….specifically in reference to the noted meme.
While I say in my video that I am a Christian, I actually refer to myself as being a Follower of Christ. Unfortunately, the label “Christian” has been hijacked by a loud and hurtful segment of the American religious community that is often hard for me to recognize. You may see it differently, but I hold more firmly to Jesus than the dogma that is portrayed often in my culture.
This is the final installment for this meme I came across that was posted by a family member. It is my most direct response to it. Again, this involves my interpretation of scripture that is also backed up by many studied theologians. I will ask, if your only response to this is to insist I am not a Christian or other choice words, that is not a productive conversation and therefore I would ask that you refrain (just as I will refrain from finding reasons why YOU are not a Christian). However, if you’d like to share your interpretations of the specific scriptures involved in this, I’m all ears.
Before I get into the theological aspects of this post, I
want to emphasize that memes such as this create very dangerous scenarios for
LGBTQ+ people. In today’s aggressive and
even hateful rhetoric, people are actually empowered to physically harm LGBT
people because of messages like this.
Also, young people struggling with the realization of their sexuality
can very easily lose all hope and go as far as take their own lives. Words have power, which is a Biblical truth,
and I encourage everyone (but especially Christians) to let their words/memes
be “always full of grace”. (Taken from
Colossians)
First of all, many of my previous highlights regarding how many Christians today view things through a different filter today is related to Lordship Salvation. This branch of religion adds our requirements to salvation, sanctification, and emphasizes works over everything. Proponents of Lordship Salvation define it this way, “The doctrine of lordship salvation teaches that submitting to Christ as Lord goes hand-in-hand with trusting in Christ as Savior. Lordship salvation is the opposite of what is sometimes called easy-believism or the teaching that salvation comes through an acknowledgement of a certain set of facts.”Quote link. Opponents say this, “As defined by its own advocates, Lordship Salvation could more properly be called “Commitment Salvation,” “Surrender Salvation,” or “Submission Salvation” since in actuality the debate is not over the Lordship of Christ, but the response of a person to the gospel and the conditions which must be met for salvation.” Quote link.
To me, and to summarize – Lordship Salvation is the unsupportable and unbiblical belief that the PERFORMANCE of good works, the PROMISE of good works, or the EVIDENCE of good works MUST accompany faith in Christ in order to establish, or provide evidence, that such faith has resulted in eternal life. While the Bible definitely outlines parameters to assist us in being disciples of Christ, it does not say that any of these man-made conditions are necessary for salvation. However, many Protestant Evangelical churches, ministries, and pastors (especially in America) teach that concept as foundational today. Which is super ironic to me, because many of these same believers of these “truths” claim Catholics are not Christians because they are too focused on man-made efforts. In any case, I believe this approach and belief system was behind the creation of this meme. Further, I’d like to acknowledge that if you Google “Lordship Salvation believer’s favorite scriptures to condemn”, 100% of the noted scriptures will be listed (and not just for gays, but for ANYONE they determine have not met the additional criteria of works to be truly saved).
So, enough of my thoughts on this (though I think it is
important to understand), let’s see what the scriptures indicate. Remember, they were referenced specifically
to prove that I cannot be a Christian because I am gay.
1 Cor 6:9-11
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit
the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor
idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor
the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom
of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified,
you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of
our God.
First of all, I am MUCH MORE condemned for being an adulterer if I took this at face value, for Jesus Himself said, “And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.” Matthew 19:9. I would argue that, because of these red letter words, at least 50% of the Evangelical Church would be in hell with me! But again, the context of this meme is about BEING GAY, so I suppose they wanted me to ignore the adultery part and focus on the “who practice homosexuality” part. I won’t get into the etymology of the word “homosexuality” in the script for today, but note this is a more recent translation and heavily disputed.
I surmise that the person who created the meme as well as
the one who shared it believe that people who commit serious sins (especially
those filthy homos!), or whose lives have a pattern of serious sin, won’t go to
heaven. They probably also believe that “true believers” won’t commit these
sins, or at least that they won’t have a pattern of any of these sins in their
lives – hence the “can’t be a Christian” tag for us gays.
However, this is NOT what this scripture is saying! This passage means that people who are not in
Christ (that is, who have never trusted in Christ as Savior, aka “the
unrighteous”) will not get into heaven. They are condemned because they have
never believed in Jesus, not because they have committed these sins. Christ
paid for all of our sins, past, present, and future, including the ones listed
in this passage. Remember when we
accepted Christ He put HIS righteousness over us? We are no longer unrighteous because of the
free gift Jesus gave to us.
2 Cor 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.
The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
Many Christians (but especially those who follow – even unknowingly – Lordship Salvation) believe this means that whoever has believed in Christ as Savior will have an instantaneous change, that their mind will instantly be focused only on holy topics, their will will be subdued and directly to God’s, and their affections will be completely changed from love of sin and self to that of love of holiness and God. Because of that, sin cannot truly continue – or especially pervasive and ongoing sin – because if it does, they can’t really have accepted Christ or have been saved.
But we all just have to be honest and look in our mirrors to
understand that was not the case in any of our lives or our walk with
Christ. The affections of a saved person
are not automatically changed from a love of sin and self to a love of holiness
and God. Changing our way of thinking to line up with God’s way of thinking
takes our cooperation, as Romans 12:2 makes so clear:
Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by
the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of
God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
2 Corinthians 5:17 means that whoever has received eternal
life through faith in Christ has been regenerated, resulting in the creation of
a new human who is a sinless, incorruptible child of God. This new human is a result of the second
birth, a spiritual birth, which all who possess eternal life have undergone.
The flesh nature, which is neither good, nor righteous, does not go away when
we are born again. That results in a conflict between the flesh and the spirit,
which will continue until we die, or are raptured. We are instructed to walk in the newness of
life (Romans 6:4), to put on the new man (Ephesians 4:24), and to walk in the
spirit (Galatians 5:16 and 25) so that we can manifest the fruits of the spirit
(which are good things) and not the works of the flesh (which are evil). This scripture has nothing to do with
salvation, but a promise that we will not be forsaken and we hold a new
position as a child of God that was given to us despite our position in sin.
Gal 5:24
And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the
flesh with its passions and desires.
To really get the context of this scripture, I am expanding
it to include Gal 5:19-23
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual
immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy,
fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies,
and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do
such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is
love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness,
self-control; against such things there is no law.
Again, this scripture was used to prove that I am not a
Christian because I am gay. Does this
show that people who commit these sins will not get into heaven?
No. This passage teaches that these works of the flesh will
be manifested in the lives of Christians if they choose to not walk in the
Spirit. Not walking in the spirit is one
thing, but it doesn’t mean one has not accepted Christ nor does it cancel
salvation, which was a gift to begin with.
The people referred to as “they” in this passage are unbelievers. They
will not inherit the kingdom of God (go to heaven), because they have not
believed in Jesus as Savior. People who
are not Christians cannot walk in the Spirit, because they have never received
the Spirit.
Further, also in Galatians, Paul rebukes the Jewish Christians for demanding that Gentile Christian men be circumcised to truly be a follower of Christ.
Claiming the Promise puts it this way:
Paul refuted the troublemakers by referring the gentile
converts to Christianity to God’s early promise in Genesis. God promised
Abraham and Sarah that they would have heirs and be the ancestors of a
multitude of nations (Genesis 15:4-5; 17:4, 15-16). Those descendants were
Gentiles as well as Jews. Paul referred to that early promise in order to prove
from scripture that it is not God’s law but God’s promise that defines God’s
relationship (covenant) with humankind. The law didn’t come until long after
Abraham and Sarah had received the promise and believed (Galatians 3:17-18).
Though Gentiles were never under the Jewish law, they clearly were part of God’s
covenant. They did not need to be circumcised or to follow other Jewish
practices.
“Those of us who are lesbian and gay Christians,” some of us observe, “are the Gentiles of modern Christianity who are being asked wrongly to renounce their/our sexual identity and live under the law of heterosexuality in order to be included in God’s covenant. That demand is a gospel that is not really a gospel at all.” Link to Quote, Pg. 11
1 John 3:7-10
Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever
practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the
devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of
God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a
practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on
sinning, because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the
children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not
practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his
brother.
So again, the premise of the meme being that I can’t be a
Christian because I am gay, I surmise these scriptures were used to point out
that because I continue to sin (live as a lesbian each day), I am not
practicing righteousness and am instead sinning. Therefore, I am not of God. Is that what this scripture is saying?
No. When we love God, we will love those born of God. Loving
God and loving others is not automatic in the life of a believer. If it were,
we would not be exhorted to love God with our whole heart and to love one
another. But more importantly, we need
to take the entire context of 1 John into account. Go backwards and look at 1 John 2:1. There
John is writing that children of God can and do still sin. Paul in the book of
Romans 7:14-25, tells us that indwelling sin remains within us. Our sin nature
is dead, but indwelling sin is still active.
The key to it all is understanding our identity in Christ; we have been
declared righteous, however we will still sin after we have been saved. As we
grow in Christ, we will learn to hate sin more and more, just as God hates sin.
Many still believe that we can lose our salvation or that because we still sin, we must not be a child of God. Remember who is declaring us justified – God Himself. And the Bible is clear that we are not justified by works. As such, our failure at works also do not disqualify us. So, the Bible is clear we sin as children of God, and we’d be more clear ourselves if we were more honest. Jesus has covered ALL of our sins; our will and self-effort cannot save us or keep us saved. Finding my identity in Christ has provided me freedom from bondage, and it was given to me as a gift from Christ Himself.
Rom 6:1-7
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that
grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do
you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were
baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into
death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of
the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a
death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like
his. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of
sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.
For one who has died has been set free from sin.
This is a complex area, especially since many Bible translations (including the older versions of the NIV) create the “sin nature” argument instead of sticking to “flesh”. These verses are often used to condemn groups of people that are viewed as sinful, thus labeling them “Not Christian”. See Andrew Farley’s article here for expanded details.
Look also at Romans 7:21 that puts the above verses into full context; our flesh so wants to contribute to our holiness. That is the flesh of self-effort or trying to will ourselves into a state of righteousness. That cheapens what Christ did on the cross! Saying that only some of our sins were forgiven (the ones leading up to our asking God to forgive our sins), would mean Christ only died for some of our sins. If He died for only some of our sins, then the cross isn’t finished, and He would need to go back on it each day to die for more sins and future sins. This is not to call out those of us who sin (which, hello, is all of us Christians) to expose us as fake, or any other focus – but to remind us that we are crucified with Christ and we need to stop acting like we used to when we tried to offset this with our own actions. Or even worse, deny we are sinning while condemning others who sin.
1 Tim 1:8-10
Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it
lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but
for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy
and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the
sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers,
and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine
Again, based on the meme, I am to understand that – because
I am sexually immoral – I can’t be a Christian.
But what is Paul really saying to Timothy with these verses? Paul White says this:
Now Paul wants to make sure that no one thinks that he is
against the law, so he says that it is good, “if a man use it lawfully” (verse
8). Wait a minute! If there is a lawful way to use the law, then there must be
an unlawful way to use the law. Paul says, “Knowing this, that the law is not
made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly
and for sinners, for unholy and profane…” (verse 9). In light of this
instruction, why is the law so frequently used against Christians? When a saint
fails, we often hear the same condemnatory remarks used, citing the Law of God,
as we do against the sinner. Instead, we should edify the believer, reminding
them of who they are in Christ. Only the grace of God is going to teach them
how to live righteous in this present world (Titus 2:11, 12).
In other words, the Apostle Paul was saying the law is for the list of sinners. We are not under the law, we are under grace. Paul White goes on to say, “Saint, receive no condemnation today. Let the love of God and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son silence the voice of condemnation in your spirit. God’s Law is just, holy and good and it shows people their sins. You are clean in Jesus, so see His grace and favor, and walk therein.” Link to article.
Conclusion
The Bible does not give us a litmus test to check if someone
else is or is not a Christian. As I’ve
shared in previous posts, the fruits of the spirit can and are manifested in
non-Christians as well – even Satan displayed them per the Bible! Jesus said others would know we follow Him by
the love we show. I think the Apostle Paul’s
answer would be fairly straightforward: a Christian is someone who is indwelt
by the Holy Spirit. “If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does
not belong to Christ”, he writes in Romans 8:9. Then, two verses later: “if
the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised
Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through
his Spirit who dwells in you.” So if someone has the Spirit, they will be
raised, and if someone does not have the Spirit, then they don’t belong to
Christ. That sounds about as close to a definition of what makes a Christian as
we’re likely to find. And for what it’s worth, I think the story of Cornelius
indicates that Peter and the other Jerusalem apostles would agree (Acts 10:47;
11:17-18).
The problem is, then, how can we tell who has the Holy Spirit? Admittedly, this doesn’t give us a cut-and-dried test we can apply to others. It is, after all, not always easy to be sure who has the Spirit and who doesn’t, but that may not be such a bad thing. If God had wanted us to know for certain whether a particular church leader, or presidential candidate, or an LGBT person was a Christian, he’d have given us a secret password which only true believers could say. But he didn’t. So maybe we’re supposed to have assurance of our own salvation, but leave the final answers about the salvation of others with God. And, I contend, that it is MORE IMPORTANT to love……Christians, non-Christians, sinners, even our enemies.
Reverend Dr. Kari Tolppanen put it this way:
With respect to the debate about gay marriage, people in opposite camps have shown very little real love for each other. It is sad to see how few Christians have shown any desire to see the issue from the perspective of homosexuals. They do not want to explore the subject or to know any gay people (GMR or show love and compassion to family members they do know). The only thing that homosexuals hear from the mouths of these people is condemnation and disapproval. These Christians are today’s Pharisees who cling to their view of the Bible’s teaching, but forget what is most important in the law: mercy, justice and faithfulness (Matt. 23:23). They tie up heavy loads and put them on homosexuals’ shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them (Matt. 23:4). They believe they know what is best for homosexuals even though they may not know any homosexual people personally. I constantly hear stories about how cruel some Christians are towards homosexuals. Some parents abandon their gay children and many churches kick out gay people. No wonder many homosexuals have a very hostile attitude towards Christians and regard them as the worst kind of Pharisees. Link to article.
If you believe LGBT cannot be Christians, that is your right. Even if you’ve read this blog, seen my other blogs, and stick to that view, that is your right. But memes such as these are not loving. They do not share “good news” as the gospel does, but it closes the door to relationships. Where there is judgment, there is no love. And, I encourage you to ask yourself, is it more important to condemn others than to love them and have a relationship with them? Is your way better than the steps Jesus took with the sinners around Him? Do you honestly believe that, unless someone is perfect in your moral measurement, they can’t be Christian?
I contend we are called to love. Love our neighbors, love our enemies, and
love is to have a relationship with them where they are. And I will NEVER say someone is not a Christian
because I cannot tell with any surety that they have the Holy Spirit in them.
But to those who DO know me, I would hope that you see the love I share. I cling very heavily to the Holy Spirit to assist me in this, because I am the one being told my sincere faith is not true and I am not changed. I rest in Christ and I know without fear that I am His, no matter that others would rather spend their time insisting I am going to hell.
Recently, I saw a meme on Facebook and, as part of the LGBT community, it hurt me. I posted two installments explaining my view of the Gospel, and now I want to address another Christian concept that blurs the truth of how many of us view each other in Christ. I feel this is another area that is important to understand before I specifically address the meme.
Many of these thoughts and explanations were derived from the book, Religion vs Jesus Do vs Done by Preston Greene, though I also recommend checking out books by Andrew Farley.
Too often, we Christians go through motions to help us
decide if another person is a Christian or not.
We look for “proof” that they are saved, and if we don’t see it, we
decide they really CAN’T be a Christian.
This concept gets a little murky when “life” gets in the way. For example, one might say “no one who breaks
the law can be a Christian”, but when you point out that speeding is breaking
the law, the explanation is often further refined to mean “when you break
IMPORTANT laws”. We also often hear the
phrase, “to be a REAL Christian, your life needs to produce fruit”, or “the
fruits of your life will show if you’re a Christian.” Today, we will talk about fruit and its place
in our salvation.
The Fruit of the Spirit is detailed in Galatians 5:22-23
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace,
patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against
such things there is no law.”
Many religious people look for these as proof that a person
is a Christian. If they believe the
fruit is not present, they often decide the person is not REALLY a Christian! They might also go to Matthew 7:15-20 and
John 15:6 and take it a step further – not only are you not a Christian, but
YOU ARE GOING TO HELL! (I suppose that’s
one and the same, but you get my drift.)
If they aren’t producing these fruits, then they must be going to
hell. I am here today to share, I believe these
views are wrong.
Preston Greene in his book asks some questions before breaking
down the scripture in Matthew and John.
These views are based on the Christian belief of salvation through Jesus
as being saved.
1. Can an
unsaved person show love?
2. Can an
unsaved person show joy?
3. Can an
unsaved person show longsuffering towards humanity (through charity)?
4. Can
unsaved people promote peace (Gandhi)?
If you
are honest, the obvious answer is yes to all the questions. Let’s take this a
step further, shall we?
1. Do
Jehovah’s Witnesses show these fruits? (If you didn’t know, they don’t believe
that Jesus was God in the flesh and think you have to earn salvation).
2. How
about Mormons? Do they show fruits of the Spirit?
3. Do
peace loving Muslims show any of these fruits?
The truth of this is ALL of the above show the fruit of the
spirit as listed in Galatians. It’s hard
to deny it even if you’re trying to insist that showing fruit is the true
measurement of proving salvation in Christ.
If this were not true, why would Matthew 7:15 warn against “wolves in
sheep’s clothing”? 1 Cor 11:13-14 tells
us that anyone can act like they’re a Christian by displaying this fruit, heck,
even Satan appeared to be an angel of light!
The fact remains that these attributes can be manifested by people who
are not Christians.
But what about Christians? Is there something in the Bible that shows that Christians always show these fruits once they receive Christ? In truth, they show the exact opposite. Preston Greene said it this way (emphasis mine),
“The church at Corinth was carnal, but were babes in
Christ (1 Cor 3:1-3). They were a saved church; sanctified (1:2). However, they
were sinning all over the place. Some of their sins were envying, strife, and
divisions (3:3). A believer has relations with his stepmother (1 Cor 5:5),
there were lawsuits among the believers (1 Cor 6:7) there was fornication (1
Cor 7:2), there was drunkenness at the Lord’s Supper (1 Cor 11:21). How many
fruits of the Spirit were they showing? Not many, but they were saved.
With reason and scripture we can conclude that fruits of the Spirit are not evidence of salvation. If the unsaved can do them without the Holy Spirit and saved people can all but ignore them, why do the religious insist it is mandatory that they should be exhibited? Because that’s what the “religious” do. Their mantra of “do” for salvation exceeds Jesus’s “done”.”
But what about Matthew 7:15-20 and John 15:6? Let’s break it down.
Matthew 7:15-20
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing
but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are
grapes gathered from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy
tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree
cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that
does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will
recognize them by their fruits.”
Preston Greene responds with this:
From a first look at this passage, it appears that if one
does not produce fruit, he or she is going to hell. First, this passage is
about false prophets (verse 15), not the born-again believer. Verse 16 reads,
“You will know them (false prophets) by their fruits.” Well, this is not
referring to fruits of the Spirit, as Satan presents himself as an angel of
light. Notice verse 18: “a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit”. Do you
sin? Then guess what, you are not a good tree. The only good tree is Jesus. Jesus
said, “Why callest me thou good? There is none good but God” (Luke 18:19). Then
we get to verse 20, which reads, “Wherefore by their fruits you will know
them.” Well, if false apostles transform themselves into apostles of Christ and
Satan presents himself as an angel of light, what does “fruit” mean? The answer
is in Luke, which talks about the SAME thing.
For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither
doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. For every tree is known by his own
fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they
grapes. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that
which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth
forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart HIS MOUTH SPEAKETH.
(Luke 6:43-45)
This is what fruit means in this passage. It is doctrine
and what that doctrine produces (fruit). There are only two ways to see false
prophets. One, if they prophesy something and it does not come to pass then
they are not from God (Duet 18:22). The second area is “what is coming out of
their mouths”. If you study your Bible and learn, you can tell someone is false
by the words they speak. Bad doctrine, or false doctrine, will not produce for the
kingdom. For example, what type of fruit were the Pharisees producing? What
does Scripture teach us?
“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye
compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him
twofold more the child of hell than yourselves” (Matt 23:15).
Their fruit was to proclaim salvation by the works of the
law to their disciples, to root their disciples in that doctrine that they
became more a child of hell then their teachers! This was the “fruit” of the Pharisees
(ClearGospel.org). As a result, we need to abide in Jesus (correct doctrine) to
produce fruit (converts) for the kingdom.
John 15:6
“If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a
branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and
burned.”
Preston Greene responds:
Jesus said to believe (trust) in Him for salvation. IF
you have done this, you have abided in Jesus to do what was needed to have
everlasting life. Remember, Jesus promised not to cast you out; He will never
lose you and nothing will pluck you out of His hand (John 6:39 and John 10:28).
Jesus CANNOT contradict Himself. Second, Jesus is talking to believers
(disciples). Look what he says starting in verse 3.
John 15:3-5
“Already you are clean because of the word that I have
spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by
itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it
is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.”
You can read Preston’s book explaining the reference to
fire, but note the MEANING of the fruit as noted in his book (emphasis mine):
Jesus uses this as an “idiom” or metaphor. IF one does
not abide in him, he or she is “useless”. Useless branches are tossed away.
This does not mean saved people can go to hell. That would contradict so many
passages of scripture. Jesus is just saying that if you don’t abide in him (to
bear fruit), then you are as useless as a branch bearing no fruit and will be
set aside. In other words “God won’t use you”. Can a believer produce no
fruit and go to heaven? YES. The Bible is clear. Salvation is by grace through
faith in the gospel of Jesus. In 1 Cor 3:11-15 we read how we, as born
again believers, will stand before the judgment seat of Christ, where our works
will be tested for reward. Some will have all their works burnt up, but they
themselves will be saved. If they had “borne fruit”, that fruit would not have
been burnt up, but rewarded. We conclude with verse 8, which tells us the
context of the passage. Salvation is NOT in view here. Discipleship is in view
here: “so shall ye be my disciples”. Salvation and discipleship— always keep
them separate.
For salvation, Jesus said, “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light” (Matt 11:28-30). For discipleship (service) Jesus said “pick up your cross and follow me”. Discipleship is NOT easy with a light burden. They are talking about two different things. The religious confuse salvation and discipleship; please don’t make the same mistake. Salvation is FREE. Discipleship is costly, BUT will be rewarded at the Judgment Seat of Christ. If you abide in Him, you can bear much fruit! Are you in the doctrine of Jesus or the doctrine of the Pharisees (religion)?
In summary, we cannot know man’s heart and it is very dangerous to declare that someone is not a Christian based on your view of their works, or fruits. Their salvation has nothing to do with their works, as their salvation is by faith alone in Jesus Christ. Please don’t confuse salvation with discipleship.
This is the second part of my “review” of the Gospel. Since the Gospel is so important, there will be more info provided before I get into the “meat” of this topic related to the meme.
Colossians 2:13-14 says, “And you, who were dead in your
trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with
him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt
that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to
the cross.”
So, Jesus took care of all the work to remove our sin and
provide us a means to enter heaven. The
only thing we need to do is accept His actions (sacrifice) and acknowledge His
death and resurrection that conquered death (or sin).
It seems very clear to me that the only reason we are
righteous, holy, or can enter into heaven is because we believe and trust that
the death and resurrection of Jesus saves us.
Nothing we have done or will do can accomplish this amazing feat.
Galatians 2:16 says, “yet we know that a person is not
justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also
have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and
not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.”
John 3:16 says, “for God so loved the world, that he gave
his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal
life.”
You’ll notice that these scriptures do not add anything to
the list to require justification. In
fact, it clearly says that works, or actions we attempt to offer to God, do not
justify us. So we cannot act holy, we
cannot be a better Christian or even a better person by doing ANYTHING as it
relates to our righteousness and holiness.
That also means that things that we do on earth do not negate the blood
of Christ, because we have nothing to do with the process in the first place.
Grace is a FREE GIFT that Jesus gave us even though we
didn’t deserve it. If I gave you a gift
for your birthday and then handed you a list of things you must do to DESERVE
that gift, you’d think I was crazy.
Jesus did not give us a list of things we must do to be saved, and it is
crazy when we add conditions to people to “prove” they are saved when their
salvation is 100% a gift provided for each of us. It can be argued that when we humans insist
that we must take part in our salvation and add criteria (works or actions) to
REALLY be saved, we haven’t really and truly accepted the Grace (free gift) of
Jesus, but instead rely on our own efforts for salvation.
Romans 11:6 says, “But if it is by grace, it is no longer
on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.”
Ephesians 2:8-9 says, “For by grace you have been saved
through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a
result of works, so that no one may boast.”
To be saved, we must trust in Jesus and repent. Here I’ve taken the wording directly from the
article linked below:
WHAT SAVING REPENTANCE IS NOT:
1. Saving
repentance is not being sorry for your sins.
2. Saving
repentance is not turning from your sins or reforming your life.
3. Saving
repentance is not the willingness to turn your life over to God so that He can
direct your path.
Saving repentance has absolutely nothing to do with
regretting your sins or resolving to turn from them. God is willing to save you
just the way you are. The Bible says:
While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
WHAT SAVING REPENTANCE IS:
Saving
repentance is to stop trusting in gaining eternal life through religion,
religious rituals, or obedience to God’s laws.
The word “repent” comes from the Greek word which means “to change one’s
mind.” Those who believe that eternal life can be earned through good works are
commanded in Scripture to change their mind or “repent.” They are told to stop trusting
in their works, and come to God on the basis of grace through faith alone.
When we’ve trusted in Jesus and repented from our own
effort, we receive real assurance that we are saved – we are Christians! We know when we die, we will go to heaven.
John 5:24 says, “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever
hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come
into judgment, but has passed from death to life.”
Again, this scripture does not go on to say “and go to
church, and refrain from using foul language, separate from sinners, etc.” Because, that would mean our efforts really
control our salvation and that is absolutely not the Gospel.
Additionally, if any of us sin after receiving the free gift
from Jesus (and if we are honest, we realize we all continue to sin), we are
still secure in Christ. The blood of
Christ finished ALL sin; past, present, and future.
Hebrews 10:10-12, 14 says, “And by that will we have been
sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands daily at his service,
offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But
when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down
at the right hand of God. For by a
single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.”
Before I end this, I want to emphasize that I am NOT saying,
nor do I believe, this means we can continue to sin and run around doing anything
we want. There are real and painful
consequences to our sin on the earth.
Relationship can be broken, lives can be lost, we can absolutely fill
our lives with pain, and we will not be very good ambassadors for our
Lord. God wants more from us, and His
Holy Spirit that is in us will help us to grow in Him to become more like
Him. But even as we sin, because of the
free gift of Grace, nothing can separate us from God. That is the Truth.
I welcome any comments on this and will base subsequent
posts/vlogs based on this foundation.
The article I used to help explain the Biblical
Truth of Grace can be accessed here.
This is the first part of my “review” of the Gospel; the
vlog was a bit long so cut it down some.
Even still, this vlog is longer than I’d like – I promise I will work on
that! Since the Gospel is so important,
there will be more info provided before I get into the “meat” of this topic.
Recently, I saw this meme on Facebook and, as part of the
LGBT community, it hurt me. But more
than that, knowing it was from a family member who has known me most of my life
and (I thought) had seen the fruits of my relationship with Jesus, being “told”
I was not a Christian broke my heart. I
wish I could say that I didn’t turn that hurt into anger, but I rode that
rollercoaster as well. But in the days
following seeing that meme, other aspects of the message it portrayed bothered
me as well. And today I want to share
with you some thoughts, not to defend my position in Christ so much as to
defend the Gospel…..and to encourage you as you traverse your faith with the
present climate too often presented to LGBTQAI+ today.
Before I get started, I also want to emphasize that these
are my beliefs based on my years of reading the Word and having a relationship
with Christ. As such, I will not demand
or insist that MY views are right, though I hold that very strongly. In that vein, I pray that others who hold
different views act accordingly and do not insist on their own way, which
should be avoided as per 1 Cor 13. My
beliefs, which are constantly being refined by the Holy Spirit, are to guide my
life……not yours. Your beliefs are to
guide your life, not mine – though I don’t mind sharing thoughts and speaking
with others who have different views.
Also, at the end of this post is a link to a document that I referenced
for this post and I encourage you to check it out.
This segment is to first establish what THE GOSPEL means to
me, and to share my understanding of its definition based on the Bible. It is foundational for establishing our
position in Christ and no discussion can really move on until you, my readers,
know the foundation I am coming from.
The Gospel means “good news”; it allows us to have a loving,
meaningful relationship with God. It
also assures us that ALL who believe in the saving work of Jesus will spend
eternity with Him in heaven. The Bible
is clear that we all have sinned and therefore are not qualified to enter into
heaven.
Romans 3:23 says “ for all have sinned and fall
short of the glory of God”
Ephesians 2:5 says, “…..we were dead in our trespasses….”
Because of our sin, we were separated from God because He
cannot abide sin – sin created an unbreakable barrier for each of us. I don’t dispute this at all – our sin
definitely put us in a place where we could not enter into a meaningful
relationship with God and certainly caused us to not be able to go to
heaven. For thousands of years, people
tried to address the sin in their lives by trying to be better; they tried to
follow the Ten Commandments, went to church (or temple), tried to love their
neighbors, prayed, got baptized……even today our lists are long in our own
attempts to become holy. But the fact
is, 100% of our own efforts do not get the job done.
Isaiah 64:6 says, “….all our righteous deeds are like a
polluted garment”
Our efforts don’t do much – it is like mopping the floor
with a muddy rag. Our efforts may be
absolutely sincere, but they have never worked and never will. Our efforts will never erase the sin in our
lives or break the barrier that keeps us from God.
That’s where Jesus came in, as described in the good news of
the Gospel.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 says, “Now I would remind you,
brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you
stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I
preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that
Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried,
that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that
he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.”
It is only because of the death and resurrection of Jesus
that the barrier created by our sin has been broken. He alone provided a means for us to have a
relationship with God and the ability to enter heaven (or be saved). This is a hugely important concept, because
it gives credit where credit is due. And
because of this action, all sin (past, present, and future) was placed onto
Christ. All the guilt and punishment caused
by our sins were imputed on Christ and he bore all of it in our place.
Isaiah 53:6 says, “All we like sheep have gone astray; we
have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity
of us all.”
1 Peter 2:24 says, “He himself bore our sins in his body
on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds
you have been healed.”
2 Corinthians 5:21 says, “For our sake he made him to be
sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.”
Jesus literally was punished for our sin (past, present, and
future); the wrath of God was poured out on Christ as He hung on the cross and
finally died.
Isaiah 53:5 says, “But he was pierced for our
transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the
chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.”
Matthew 27:46 says, “And about the ninth hour Jesus cried
out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God,
my God, why have you forsaken me?”
Jesus’ death paid for our sin COMPLETELY. God’s justice was completely satisfied,
removing sin’s stain once and for all.
Isaiah 53:10-11 says, “Yet it was the will of the Lord to
crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord
shall prosper in his hand. Out of the
anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the
righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall
bear their iniquities.”
John 19:30 says, “When Jesus had received the sour wine,
he said, “It is finished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.”
The phrase “It is finished” was actually an expression used in Rome in the time of Christ when a debt had been paid in full. When Jesus shouted this just before He died, He was indicating that He had made a perfect, complete and final payment for sin.
Just Rambling 